mod update 12 + State of The Game

[hohnkai]

M O D U P D A T E

Hello Savrites! This is an important mod update, so please read it through. We’ve got a lot of stuff to go over, Thisavrou’s one year anniversary and game changes, but we’ll try to keep it concise. First, we’re going to start off with how it’s almost a year since the game opened. Everyone has been amazing. We’ve had a lot of fun, and the game has truly blossomed. Thank you so much for being a part of it!!! Second, and possibly the most important, is that over the last few months our game has gone from around fifty characters to close to two hundred. While that is astounding and we’re pleased that everyone is excited to be in the game, it’s gotten to be too much to handle and is making it harder for us to stay on track. We’ve all been so busy trying to keep up and to make events that cater to such a large group, that we’ve lost focus on the important stuff. So, in order to get us back on track, to push the game back to the premise and main focus, we’re going to be doing some IC and OOC changes, as well as addressing some issues we’ve begun to notice having come up in game. The Premise | The FAQ Thisavrou is a panfandom science fiction game with elements of horror, survival, exploration, and humor. Ship-life is the game's central focal point, along with supply and exploring excursions onto planets once every two months. With the mind-set that going home means cooperative space travel, every character is expected to do their share of the ship's work and maintenance; including gathering cargo from the planets that the Moira docks. Getting home is a collaborative effort as each person and the ship's captains all need one another to reach their destination... The planet the ship originates from. In order to get the game back on track and back to the original premise, ship-life is going to be the main focus for a while. What does this mean? Cooperative space travel where everyone is required to help and work together since it will take that group effort for the ship to get to the planet that created the portal technology. Also, while characters can believe what they want, the captains are not forcing anyone to be there. As per the premise, they’ve signed a work contract. Some characters came in on a planet Ingress, others in on the ship, and both were offered employment and board to help the ship reach its destination so they could return home. Somewhere along the way that has gotten muddled, and we’re going to be focusing on that as well. • AN OOC CHANGE: apps will be open next month and then they are going to be temporarily closed until further notice. We’re doing this for a number of reasons. The game is too big to fit the plot, and with our anniversary coming up, we need the extra time to focus on it as well as the cast the game already has. We do not have a date for when they’ll open again, only that they will open some time after the anniversary and after everything has smoothed into a transition that fits with the premise of the game better than it does now. When they do open back up, there will be a low app cap and mandatory reserve in order to app at all. For this upcoming app round: we are going to be taking a total of 60 apps that will require a reserve to apply. It will be strictly on a First Come, First Serve basis. As per our the application page, there will be no app challenges. (This is to help encourage players who really want to be in the game and keep the game cast a manageable size.) • AN IC CHANGE: We usually include a small write up on the intro log: “Shortly after, you are led out and toward the medbay. Inside this room, you are given a physical scan and offered a contract to sign that states you are now part of the crew of the Moira with a specific job. This process consists of a complete work-up of medical history and current health, and afterwards, you are given your MID, a device that is integrated into your hand with only the slightest pinch. From there, you are guided out of the medbay and to your living quarters.” However, we’re going to elaborate on this on all upcoming intro logs so that there is no future confusion. Characters sign a contract and choose to stay here. If you want to play a character in-game that might not want to be on the ship, you have to come up with a way for them to stay because the premise doesn’t involve coercion or that the Moira is a slave ship in any capacity. • AN IC CHANGE: After all the events, we’ve decided that there will be no punishment system. It was never meant to be a part of the game, and after considering what it might mean and how it will affect the game's tone, we’ve chosen not to make it a permanent fixture. It has created an environment that is entirely the opposite of what the entire game focus/premise is, which is being cooperative and working together. This means that ICly, as of today, the captains released a message to all crew stating the new changes reiterating that nobody has to be here. If a character cannot live and work on the ship without “choosing” to murder another character, they will be asked to leave and will be left on the next planet; this would be the equivalent of dropping from the game. There is also the option that if you want your character to murder that it will result in being placed in the hold until the ship reaches the portal planet. For the sake of players being allowed to decide what they like, both options are available to everyone. Otherwise, come up with an incentive or a way of thinking that your character could follow this one rule that would make them want to stay on the ship and not kill those part of the crew. This doesn’t mean that characters can’t fight or argue or scuffle with one another, just that they will all now know that a murder results in one of the two above things. The captains will be firm, no exceptions. Also, this doesn’t mean that characters can’t die. If there is an event, either something on ship or planet, or anything that players plot out, the crew are still allowed to die. Characters can accidentally kill each other or events can lead to it or some random guy on a planet can shank your character. We just want the tone and atmosphere to get back to its original focus, so we’ll be ICly (technically OOCly) making “intentional” murders not a thing anymore. We know this is a lot to take in, but we believe that these changes are what’s best for the game as a whole. Your mods need time to focus and get the game back on track so that it can continue to be around for a long time. We’ve got a second arc coming up soon, though this date has not been set as of yet, and we’re pretty excited for it! We just need to get the game to a certain point in order for it to happen the way we need it to. Added Clarification: We didn't want to just put a ban on murders without having an IC reason for it, because that's not fair to players who want their characters to react. We were trying to stay away from a set system for the new rule, because that's really limiting, and while we aren't going to restrict it any farther than we have, here are the basics. If a character attacks with the intent to kill. - exile/imprisonment If a character attacks someone and doesn't care if their actions kill them. - exile/imprisonment If a character attacks and accidentally kills. - no punishment If a character attacks and accidentally kills due to mental illness. - no punishment Let me elaborate briefly. We believe that in order to alter the atmosphere, crew members have to feel safe and like they won't be murdered by other crew. This means having a strict IC rule about murders. From what we've noticed in the questions, everyone is confused about what intent is and whether 'not caring' should be a reason. For intent, if a character tries to kill someone and is successful, they will have consequences, and if they aren't successful, they will as well. This is because they still tried to do it, they might try again. When it comes to not caring, every crew member has a 'duty to care'. This means that murders that occur because someone was dealing out blows and didn't care if the person died, still has the above consequences. They are supposed to not kill one another, so if they do it, they have to go. However, this does not apply to accidents. This doesn't mean characters can't fight or scuffle or argue or accidentally kill one another in a fight. Players can still play characters that do not care about the well-being of others, they just can't actively try to murder someone. It just means that they all know now ICly that if they go into a fight with intent to kill or attack not caring if they kill, then they'll have those consequences. All of this will be ICly known from this point on. How is intent gauged? This is going to be situational. If players decide to indulge in a murder plot, then they can plan out with other players and us mods, how they want it to go down. There are plenty of options to one hundred percent guarantee intent ICly, and we're not going to list them all because, again, we don't want to restrict everyone. There are cameras, crew and captains have abilities, witnesses, etc. Some examples are: If Bob is fighting with Jeremy because Bob stole his cheese, and he pushes him without intent to kill him, and he accidentally dies. Jeremy isn't punished. If Bob is fighting with Jeremy because Bob stole his cheese, and he stabs him in the throat, and he dies. Jeremy is punished. If Bob is fighting with Jeremy because Bob stole his cheese, and Jeremy says fuck it, he stole my cheese, and starts stabbing at him not caring if he dies, and Bob dies/doesn't die. Jeremy is punished. If Bob steals Jeremy's cheese and then Jeremy tries to stab him, and Anna responds by trying to stop Jeremy, does that count as intent to murder, or as defense of Bob? Defense; Bob and Anna are not punished, Jeremy is. Bob taunts Jeremy about not having any cheese. Jeremy has a flashback to a time he was tortured by a cheese stealer and lashes out at Bob in fear/anger and stabs him in the throat. No punishment. To sum this all up, murdering crew members is no longer allowed and if players are struggling with fitting their characters in the environment, message us and we'll help work it out. We're sticking to these rules because this has become to large a part of the game and it's not supposed to be due to the over arching plot and premise. If anyone has any questions or comments, just respond here or on the feedback page. We won’t know if you don’t tell tell us, and we really hope that everyone understands why we’re making the changes that we are. We will be updating the pages today to reflect these changes! Thank you everyone! NOTE: The event log will be going up later today, so please look forward to it! The OOC plotting post that went up was to allow players time to get together, and the event log has prompts so that players can thread out interactions during the strategy planning phase. However, the beginning portion of the event log is super important and not related to the looming attack, so please read it carefully and get your character involved! We hope everyone will enjoy the plot!

Comments

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

[hohnkai]

This post is not screened.

[morethan084]

Hello! Quick question as this was something Loki(MCU)'s mun and I had been discussing for a few weeks now. So we planned on Loki stabbing her and I don't want this to screw up with the new updates, but, if he doesn't kill here then he won't be dropped off on the next planet? Am I reading that right? It only happens if you kill someone?

[alan_1]

Are there any circumstances in which the new consequences for murder don't apply? For example, if a character killed in self-defense or under the influence of mind-altering substances/magic, would they still be exiled/imprisoned?

[harderfasterwrecker]

How are we determining Intent? Is it by word of the characters involved, or is there mind reading involved.

[peridork]

Just out of pure curiosity, the option for having a character be put in the hold until the end of the journey: Does that still effectively function as a drop, like the banishment option does? Or can a character theoretically do a murder and be put in the hold for the duration of the trip, but the player would still be allowed to play them in the capacity of their just. Sulking in the hold the whole time?

Personally wouldn't intend on doing this but. I'm just so curious, it'd be interesting to see played out (and also kind of hilarious OOC)

[notglitching]

Piggybacking a little off Daisy's answer upthread, but just to clarify-- if intent is the main differentiating factor...

Attacking with lethal intent (whether or not it does anything) -> exile/imprisonment.
Attacking nonlethally or with the intention of restraint (whether or not it accidentally has lethal effect) -> not that.

What if a character attacks (or defends) without caring whether their methods might be lethal?

[soldiergenes]

Just to make sure that I have this contract stuff right...

Is the way that it would be presented to new arrivals something like "hey, this Ingress thing brought you here which is something that we have no control over, but you're here now so you can either agree to work on our ship as we try to get you home, or we can drop you off at the next planet, your choice"?

And then the character can either take that at face value or assume something fishy is going on?

Re: QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

[squadgoals]

Ok, so I wouldn't do any of these, I'm just curious:

What if a character attacks with intent to kill, but is pulled back by CR? Is attempted murder the same fate?

What if someone kills someone, but deftly frames someone else for it? Like, players plot and agree to it?

Re: QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

[ex_forcechoke292]

Re: contracts, I get that we're trying to discord get certain language in regard to the situation, but this...purely a semantic point, right? Like, presented with a work contract or being left behind on a new strange planet, I'm not sure there's a way to really emphasize ICly this this is much of a choice? Some characters' MMV with it, but is this pointed emphasis that we're not supposed to address this ICly as a point anymore, or...?

I know I'm guilty of more than my fair share of this in an IC context, so I feel it's important to ask if this is a gamebreaking topic and/or something that shouldn't be done.

[gentlemenpreferblondes]

NGL, I'm sad to see the punishment system go. It was one of my favorite aspects of this game and it was very interesting to see how each character would vote and how it'd affect on the cr and tension of the crew in whole (like the brief robots vs. organics). BUT THAT BEING SAID I get why murder plots needs to be toned down and limited.

But since fighting plots are still accepted how would the punishment go for those? Would captains just give all characters involved their punishments? I mean, I play a character who's pretty confrontational and provokes others... so getting into fights isn't all too far fetched.

Another thing: since the focus is going to be on ship-life I take that it's going to show in future events and such ? I'm not asking any specific details.

[a_shadow]

I just wanted to check out the captains are planning to gauge intent, as I was planning for Tex to snap on Wash at some point and beat him up. We didn't intend for her to kill him, though. I'm not sure what consequences will look like for a character who beats another up without intent to kill.

Re: QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

[skatebird]

What if the murder ban doesn't manage to readjust the tone? Even if the characters agree to not commit any murders, that still leaves plenty of opportunities for IC (and OOC, though I hope that's much rarer) rules lawyers to stick to the letter of the law while still attacking, torturing, or otherwise inflicting misery on their crewmates. Not to mention less obvious infractions like spreading rumors, dissent, and distrust among the other crewmates or attempting to draft outside help to disrupt ship life.

Essentially, I'm wondering what balance of original intent vs. current player desire your aiming for when it comes to maintaining the tone of the game, and which (if any) future solutions you have in mind.

Re: QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

[ex_forcechoke292]

Additional question, actually, since we're getting to the nitty gritty of defining degrees of murder and manslaughter all under the same umbrella. When it comes to "not caring is effectively the same as intent" combined with attempted murder has the same consequences as successful murder, where is the line drawn in getting into a fight, unthinking, not killing, but going "too far"?

I understand there's a ton of minutiae here, but in trying to define intent, making exceptions for some cases of mental illness (re: PTSD), but not giving leeway on the attempt, blind rage, or not-caring-is-complicit, or being talked down is still an attempt, I think there's a lot of confusion on the matter. Especially with those of us who play some very morally gray (or even morally bipolar) characters and where that line of "too far" is drawn beyond successful killing.

(That said I don't mind wanting to tone the frequency of the occurrence down or even instituting IC consequences for it. The definition of where all these exceptions and intersections lie is just confusing, personally.)

[anytime]

Ok, so bear with me as a new player here (and also sorry if I missed something that happened in one of the earlier threads), but I'm confused on how intent would be proven at all. How would the captains confirm guilt? Would psychics / mind-reading be involved? Is guilt assumed? Because without concrete proof, it sounds like infomodding and a blurring of IC/OOC, which...is honestly a bad precedence. I understand you guys want a return to form and I'm totally down with that, and dealing with so many character deaths can certainly be fatiguing, but this strikes me as impossible to enforce, especially when there are so many other potential factors involved (PTSD, mind control, framing another character). So many of these things are difficult to prove and if the captains are fallible enough that you can frame another character, I'm not sure how they can prove intent short of a character admitting aloud that they were totally going to murder that guy and their miss wasn't intentional at all.

TL;DR because wow that's a lot of words: How is guilt of intent decided ICly?

Re: QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

[goodluckkobra]

hey! I was just wondering what the case is on self defense killing or believing that they are acting in self defense or the defense of others? I don't really have any plans, but I was curious, because while both of my characters would be unlikely to kill without reason, both of them would definitely kill if they felt it was necessary for their own self defense or the defense of their loved ones or for what they felt was the greater good.

thanks! :D

[outer_space]

I apologize if someone's already asked this, this post is kind of a monster! But: under the new system, will get out of jail free cards still be issued as rank rewards?

SUGGESTIONS

[hohnkai]

Re: SUGGESTIONS

[squadgoals]

All things considered, I think it'd be best to apply the penalties only to characters that actively succeed in killing/brutally harming another character! If your character gets riled, and goes at another with intent to kill, but is held back by people who know they're better than that, I'm not convinced that should result in the penalties kicking in. Makes for a bit of a downer in the occasional tense scene!

That said, I'm personally pretty chill about it either way.

[tearmeanewone]

Just a shout out to the mods, I appreciate the work you guys have put in to getting the game's premise a little more back on track. :3 It has felt a little overwhelming with all the murderface going on, not that I'm begrudging people their plots, but it does contribute to a different tone when it happens so often. So props to you guys for recognizing that!

Also agree with temporarily closing the floodgates so you guys can catch your collective breath. I love that so many people want to join and there are so many chances for new CR, but if it's putting a strain on you guys I'd prefer it if you didn't burn out. 8Db

I did have one suggestion though-- for players who only have one character, if they find themselves in a position where they have to drop (time, life stuff, character burnout), I suggest they be allowed to app one other character if they want to even if we're in the temporary-closed period. Just so they can stay in the game if they want to and they don't feel like they're leaving and wondering if they can ever come back. Just a thought!

[bosswald]

I think that progressing forward, it might be a good idea to include a portion on the app listing the character's IC reason for signing the contract/sticking around. That way players will know up front that they must have a reason and can plan accordingly. Or there could be a sticky page where players have to comment with their character's reason for signing the contract and staying, so that it could be referred back to by mods and players?

[seeingscarlet]

First of all, I really appreciate all the work and time you guys are putting into this game!

I want to second the above suggestion that maybe actual success in killing should be the determining factor? Another character stepping in and going "I know you can be better than this" or a character snapping out of previously villainous ways midway through a fight can make for really good CR/writing/character arcs, but if intent is the deciding factor that sort of storyline could become much harder to pull off.

Just food for thought! I am not attached either way.

ETA: whoops, posted this at the same time as the response to the above. You can delete this if you want!

[alan_1]

Given how (appropriately) harsh the consequences for killing/intending to kill someone are now, I think there should be some voluntary, preventative options offered to those more murder-inclined on the ship: for example, some kind of drug that inhibits rage available for prescription at the medby or just more therapy focused on non-violent conflict resolution. If these options were made obvious, it could allow players with more volatile characters an IC option for suppressing their characters' violent urges.

Also, if one of the options for staying in the game post-murder is hanging out indefinitely in the hold, the place should be made into less of a hellhole :|b

[harderfasterwrecker]

Also stopping in to say thanks for getting back to us so quick and also TOTALLY get the wanting to close down apps thing, having done apps myself for a long time and also YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME AND THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO.

#runonsentences5evr

[heroicpose]

I see the edit up there! You might want to edit again and provide the other example of like.

Bob taunts Jeremy about not having any cheese. Jeremy has a flashback to a time he was tortured by a cheese stealer and lashes out at Bob in fear/anger and stabs him in the throat. No punishment.

Since from what I understand mental illness does not result in punishment for reaction, correct?

So I probably shouldn't have gotten a potential murder plot bunny from this since that was kinda supposed to inspire the opposite reaction. I'd been sort of on and off plotting for Furiosa to at one point slip up and kill a person. She's been good about using non-lethal methods even with NPCs, and she's a good person, but her morals aren't great. She doesn't exactly want to kill someone.

That said, she still would in cold blood if she felt she needed to. That's where this gets a little bit messy for me. I personally would be very interested in playing out a redemption arc for her in the hold, so if it came down to punishment, I'd be fine. I just have some thoughts on what would be punished.

Furiosa's main reason for killing is survival reasons. She kills indiscriminately, without remorse, if she feels that these people are in some way a threat to her life or livelihood. If say, for example, she or someone she knows was infected with something nasty. She murders someone who has the cure, but isn't coughing it up so they have it all for themselves, would that be punished if she would die without it? (this is a far fetched scenario, really, but I was considering how wasteland survival morality would fit under this)

Another example. Say she reacts strongly to something someone says to her that puts her into a rage. Say it pushes her buttons about her past essentially as a slave, or seeing her mother die, or her sexual trauma, and she attacks with the intent of killing them and murders them. I assume that example would fit under the "mental illness" part?

Just throwing some ideas. :|a



As another question, say one of the robots kicks or swats a human out of the way. They're not really out to kill the person -- but they tend to forget how fragile human bodies are -- and they're not really attacking them. It's an annoyed gesture. It ends up killing the person and they don't quite care they died. Would that be intent or an accident?

[hownkai]

Hey! I added your suggestion up there because it was a good one. (We obviously can't think of every version of how to phrase these situations!)

As for some of those scenarios, they would fall under two different categories. The first scenario would still be considered intent to kill because she made the conscientious choice to murder someone (even though it was for survival). The second choice, since it could be seen as an altered state of mind, would not be punishable as intent to kill. Then again, a lot of scenarios are always up for debate, and we can discuss how you would want to handle them ICly and OOCly. As for the robot question, the action itself is not intent since it was an accident and they didn't originally do it on purpose with that exact thought in mind regardless of what they thought after. However, we would hope that the robots would still try to be careful to prevent any accidental deaths.

If you do have ideas for things you would like to do, just hit us up on the feedback page. We are always willing to work with players!

[ryuuzaki]

Without having read absolutely everything, but having read a lot of it and most of what has been said about this on my own plurk timeline, I have a suggestion!

Well, before the suggestion, it seems like a lot of the confusion is coming up over "intent"... which to me reads like the legal concept of mens rea -- guilty mind. This is part of pretty much any legal system that a player in the game is likely to be familiar with in real life. If that's correct, this might be helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
(FWIW, mens rea isn't really a crime unless there's also a "guilty act" to go with it, which is where I see some confusion over what does and does not constitute a guilty act.)

Anyway, my suggestion is a compromise: the first act of attempted murder, if it does not result in a death, could result in X amount of time in the hold as a warning (two weeks?) even if there are several counts (that is, several injured or almost-injured victims in a single incident).
A successful murder or any further unsuccessful attempts, or an unsuccessful attempted mass murder (i.e. trying to destroy the entire ship or bomb a room full of people or something like that that involves more than, say, 4-5) could involve being kicked off the party bus as already planned.

That would allow for characters to get their antagonism on (specifically in the form of nonlethal fights) while also having time to learn that they need to be able to curb their own behavior.

However! I am personally also cool with the decisions you've made as stated. I just wanted to suggest this as maybe an option to consider if you do wind up weighing other ideas.

ETA: After reading over a lot of this, I think further clarification on "going out to murder" might also help alleviate some of the confusion that I'm seeing.

I have the feeling that many people who are asking about "intent" are most likely talking about a potential killer being intercepted in the hallway or by a roommate long before they ever reach their intended victim, and the mod team might be thinking of a friend of the murderer jumping in front of the victim or catching the attempting killer's arm as the knife is coming down.

The former seems less feasible to punish in any way than the latter, since... in the "intercepted in the halls" case, how does anyone outside of the parties in the conversation even know that there was "intent"? It might make the Captains seem much more draconian than intended, because they would have to be actively monitoring every interaction between characters to catch something like that. PONDER PONDER.

I generally think it's a good idea to vastly simplify the justice system, have a meaningful punishment for actual legit murder, and have the rules and punishments come directly from the captains and with reference to the contracts, though. Hopefully the minutiae of what does and doesn't count can be worked out.